The Case for Letting Go: Rethinking Philanthropy with Santhosh Ramdoss
A Q&A with the CEO of Gary Community Ventures
This episode originally aired on May 5, 2026. You can watch the full interview on YouTube here.
About $1.7 trillion is held in U.S. foundation endowments. Hot take: the most helpful thing a huge foundation can do is work itself out of existence.
Foundations are, in theory, designed to give their money away for charitable purposes. But in philanthropy, the default is for a foundation to exist permanently.
Why do foundations give away 5% of their assets? Foundations didn’t have any rules around how much they needed to give away until 1969, when a federal law mandated a minimum of 5% to comply with tax laws.
For over 50 years that’s been the norm. They invest their endowment in regular market rate returns, grant out 5% every year, and go on in perpetuity.
This creates a strange incentive: Somewhere along the way, an institution built to catalyze positive change ends up protecting its existence instead. The impact investment industry is making headway, but the vast majority of endowments are invested in safe bets in the same old market we already have rather than bold investments in the new economy we need to build.
So far on this show, we’ve covered several ways that capital needs to move differently to accelerate climate technologies. Today’s guest, Santhosh Ramdoss, is proving that idea applies to philanthropy too. We talk about how embracing impermanence can help you make more impact, not less.
Santhosh leads Gary Community Ventures, a Colorado-based foundation serving families and kids across the state. Gary Community Ventures made a decision to transfer everything, every dollar, to the communities they serve by 2035. After that, the foundation will cease to exist.
Most foundations would never consider something so bold, but it’s catching on. Last year Gates Foundation announced they will give away roughly $200 billion and close the foundation by 2045.
In today’s conversation, Santhosh tells me about how this works in practice and why more foundations should do it. We discuss how to lead with inspiration from nature. After all, nature doesn’t hoard, so why do we?
Welcome to Future in Bloom.
Steph Speirs
Thank you so much, Santhosh, for sharing your insights with us and for joining us to share about your organizational journey. I wanted to talk to you because I think Gary Community Ventures is an outlier in philanthropy. It’s part of this growing minority of organizations that’s talking about sunsetting their endowment, which almost goes against every fiber of the being of most people with capital resources. The problems we’re seeing in life is that so many people, a tiny minority, have concentrations of wealth and hold onto that wealth. Why is Gary Community Ventures different? Can you talk about how you came to this conclusion?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Steph, thank you for hosting this, and you’ve been an incredible voice in this space. I just want to say, like, I feel like I’m in the midst of a thought leader who’s shaping the thinking of how we’ve also shaped our strategy. So Gary came to this conclusion primarily due to the vision of our founders. We were founded by Sam and Nancy Gary. And about 11 or 12 years ago, Sam came to this conclusion that he didn’t want us to follow the path of traditional endowments. He had come upon quite a bit of capital from the sale of the company that he was running at that time. And he had created Gary Community Ventures. And he looked around and he saw that perpetual philanthropy had certain fallacies that were not aligned with his values, primarily around the idea of like, you know, the problems that were trying to solve and the challenges were trying to address were incredibly urgent. And I think he also didn’t want to decide, you know, let other people who are far beyond his time to decide how his capital was going to be spent. So he created this beautiful construct for us to say that by 2035, all our assets would be fully invested in the community.
I also want to acknowledge that Sam and Nancy have a very different perception of legacy. A lot of wealth holders believe in their legacy being in buildings that are named after them and places that carry their name well after they’re gone. And they believed from, inspired by, among other things, natural phenomena, that their legacy comes from their ideas, their capital being embedded in the beauty and the love that they pass on to the world rather than holding on with their names on it. I think that inspired them. And again, I actually didn’t spend much time with Sam other than reading a two page memo that he wrote left for us to be thinking about our work. And that really has inspired us to take on that challenge of saying, how do we disrupt philanthropy by being a sunset organization?
Steph Speirs
And traditional philanthropy is often about sitting on an endowment, growing the endowment, and really making investments or grants out of the excess. So can you talk about other facets of traditional philanthropy and what Gary Community Ventures is doing that’s different?
Santhosh Ramdoss
First of all, it’s a fascinating question because I’ve been in a curiosity mode of saying, what happened to traditional philanthropy and why did we take on that option? And I think I was talking to a researcher recently and apparently Carnegie who went to the federal government and said, hey, can you create a status for us as a separate legal entity, as a foundation, and then can you put a 50 year cost to it? And the federal government said, no, we can’t do that for you. And so they came back to New York and just basically created a corporation.
And turns out corporations don’t have end dates to them. So my wondering is, did philanthropists not even sit down and think about whether it’s perpetual or not? They just adopted it as a way of thinking without actually questioning it. And then coming back to your question, I think our work is deeply embedded in systems change. And personally for me, a lot of inspiration for systems change comes from looking at natural systems, because I think systems change inherently wants to alter and shift human behavior so that we can make it a better place for everybody. And you can do that using unnatural constructs. And nothing in nature based on learning from you is permanent. And so for us to try to alter the deep systems that we care about, especially for kids and families in Colorado, but then being in an institutionalized, concrete version of the world isn’t going to work. So part of our deeper learning is to say if you really want to shift systems, there’s some beauty in us being impermanent. And we’re hoping that could be an experiment that we’re trying out in public in the next 10 years.
Steph Speirs
And impermanence is a concept, that’s an old spiritual concept in Buddhism and things, but it’s not something that we talk about in our day to day society, especially as the Western world or as Americans don’t talk about death as anything but a negative thing. And when you look at nature’s examples of different life cycles, how a water droplet can go from a waterfall to a river to rain, there’s a cycle in nature in which an individual water droplet is transformed to be something else. And in nature, the system optimizes for the whole ecology, it doesn’t optimize for the individual. So how does that play out in your work? Can you briefly describe what Gary Community Ventures does?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, so I’ll start with that. So Gary is a private family office and a philanthropic entity. We work across three different structures. We have a 50-c3 private foundation, we have an LLC that does our investment work, but operates as a family office entity. And then lastly, we do have an advocacy arm that does campaign work and political and policy work. And part of that is to acknowledge that social change happens across all these three structures. It’s across business, policy and philanthropy. And we need to operate in each one of these in order to really make the needle move the needle.
Our eventual purpose is to really make Colorado a great place to grow up as a kid. Sam and Nancy deeply believed in the well being of children. And we believe that kids deserve a better future. And there are a million ways in which we’re failing families right now. And so we’re relentless about our focus on making sure that we’re supporting kids and we’re supporting their families through things like early childhood, access to early childhood care and education, a ton of work on economic mobility, thinking about what the family structure is from the economic foundation that they have, and eventually creating structures that are durable, that can make sure that these systems are far better than what they are, especially for those that are struggling the most. So that’s our core mission.
And I love the conception that you had about talking about a droplet of water. And to me, the reason that’s inspiring is because we’re in the business of social change. And the idea of change is truly demonstrated in what we see in nature, but we’re also in the business of transformation. So when we think about our early childhood and childcare system in Colorado, our vision is for it to go from what version of it is right now, maybe a pond, into a river, into an ocean of some sort. We want it to be looking dramatically different than what it is today, which requires us to embrace this idea of change. And that to us, is a process of acknowledging this idea of nothing’s the way it is right now. We can’t control it and force it to be the way it is. And for us to have an institution that actually does that is almost completely opposite to what we’re trying to solve for. And so that’s the realization we’ve come to. And the fact that we’ve had now this institutional structure that in itself is evolving and changing gives us the freedom to go out and tackle the biggest challenges that we see in society.
Steph Speirs
In a world where so much of status is dependent on how much you accumulate rather than how much you give away, where people feel like security in an insecure world is secured by passing on intergenerational wealth, how do you convince the board of the foundation or other foundations you’re talking to about the benefits of giving away and sunsetting your endowments?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, it’s a great question. And I’ll say, increasingly wealth holders that I talk to are really choosing to give away a lot of their wealth. And so they’re like, my kids are fine. I think they’re going to be, intergenerationally, more than comfortable. And this is an American reality that we’ve created the concentration of wealth. You know, we’re literally creating billionaires by the hour at this point in time or by the day. And so they’re willing to give it away. The challenge is it hits an institutional barrier and they don’t even realize this. In many cases they’re like, no, I’ve given my money, I’ve created a foundation. But they don’t realize that foundations are essentially a dam that we built and doesn’t move. It actually like opens a tap once in a while. Right?
And so part of that is not just to understand that we have a deep sense of willingness to give in our society. And that’s actually truly American value that I would say it’s real. It’s the institutions that we’ve created have become stagnant in not acknowledging that foundations are valued by the pool of our assets that we carry. And that I think is a real challenge. I think foundation CEOs like me are not rewarded for how much change we create, often rewarded for how big is our endowment. And it becomes a single minded focus where we want to grow the size of our endowment, which I think is a challenge that we have to grapple with. And I think that to me is a real challenge of how do we shift the institutional structures compared to the people’s willingness to give. And I think it’s going to get even more because as you think about the accumulation of wealth, a lot of new wealth holders are increasingly starting to say, no, my legacy is to give this away. I think what we should do is create better plumbing than the one that exists right now.
Steph Speirs
And it’s possible to give things away and have impact. That is the downstream legacy of sunsetting. You can have an accelerated impact because you’re giving away money faster or investing it in community. You’ve talked a lot about transforming wealth into community assets. When we’re thinking of a water droplet going from a waterfall to a river, that’s what you’re working on. How does that play out? How do you turn wealth into a community asset?
Santhosh Ramdoss
There’s a lot of really beautiful indigenous wisdom in this. And I think that a primary driver of that is counterintuitive, which is we want to embrace some parts of capitalism. And wealth in America is built on the foundational idea of owning assets that appreciate in value. So for a lot of white Americans in particular, but also more broadly for privileged Americans, it often starts with a home or like some kind of an intergenerational transfer that happened. A stock, little stock that your dad or granddad owned in Apple, or like a 401k account. And so the part of what I am perplexed by and which is what Gary is working towards, is foundations are actually surprisingly good at making money. So we pretend that our job is to kind of give away the money and we’re a social change institution. But that’s only like 4 or 5% of what we do. 95% Of what we do is actually invest that money and to grow it and make it bigger. So if you ask me what foundations are good at, we’re really good at understanding and playing the game of wealth. We have diversified portfolios. We know how to invest in real estate and private equity and venture. And so if there’s anything that we can pass on to community, especially to struggling Americans, it’s the idea of how do you participate in America’s upside? And so we’re building the playbook at Gary to say, when our founders said, move your assets from our balance sheet to community’s balance sheet, what are those pathways towards wealth building for every Coloradan? And how do we make sure that it’s not just us, but every household has a chance to participate on the upside? So we’re doing experiments, for instance, creating wealth accounts where every kid who was born in the state, what would it look like if you don’t have to have like a million dollar trust fund, but maybe you can have a $10,000 trust fund? That doesn’t sound like the radical idea. We have resources to do that. Or buying a home shouldn’t be inaccessible for most households. If you can afford to pay the mortgage, you should be able to build upside and equity in that 401 should be more accessible. If you work for a really good small business that’s generating cash, you should have some part of the upside there. You should own some equity, employee ownership. So we’ve got experiments on all of these, and some of them are really scalable. And were hoping that our capital, our endowment would become the force multiplier. And so then eventually we can imagine a state and a country where everybody gets to participate in upside of this country.
Steph Speirs
And so often people think of redistribution of wealth as a tax policy issue. And it’s after the wealth has been created. And what you’re really talking about is this idea of pre distribution. How, how do we get people from the outset to partake in the upside, which is really rare in our economy.
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah. And I’m also talking about a little bit of co-creation. Right. Like there’s value generated and so we just have to have more participants in that value. And employee ownership is a great example in this where we’re seeing that if you are an employee owned business, you see dramatic increases in productivity and your revenues grow. So even if you’re a part owner of that and if you’re say a private equity firm and you don’t believe in any of this and you believe in pure capitalism, having more employee owners increases the share value of your shares that you own in that enterprise. So I think it’s better for capitalism as a whole and it’s kind of the core ideals that we’re built on. And so it really is an approach that can be applicable more widely if we can embrace it.
Steph Speirs
And so often people right now, because there’s so many failures of the market and people are being left out of services and products that are basic human rights, often energy, food, shelter, people think I can’t solve it through capitalism. Screw capitalism. And I think often people say that to their own detriment because it means that we can’t change the system. The system is inherently extractive. When there are rules of the system and the rules are completely unfettered at this moment, that we are not accurately pricing in all the different types of capital out there. We’re certainly not pricing human capital very well because we’re not increasing the minimum wage, we’re not paying decent wages, we’re not pricing in natural capital and the effects to the environment when we pollute. And, and so it’s more to me productive to talk about how do you change the rules of the game so that everyone has a fair shot than to say the system will never change and it’s inherently broken.
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah. And I think there’s also some, I think the negative effects of that is something that we should be worried about. And I’m not saying that this is like a silver bullet. And so like for instance, the climate crisis is so much more driven by the fact that there’s unfettered access to capital in a way where it becomes a blunt instrument in the source. All the negative effects are not paid attention to. But I’m an immigrant and my story of Hopefulness of what America comes from, the opportunity to be in a place of prosperity than anywhere else in the world. And so that ideal is still what keeps us core to who we are. And I think there’s always going to be this pushback. And we should be thoughtful about the dramatic negative effects of American capitalism, but also we should create more broad-based opportunities for people to participate in it. And I’m a believer that if you have more capitalists and more engaged people who participate in our economy thoughtfully, then we will collectively make choices that’s better for everyone. I think right now it’s because it’s so concentrated the second order effects are not ever realized by everybody else. So the participants can decide whatever they want to do with it. So that’s my kind of slightly optimistic hope that this would address some of the deeper crises.
Steph Speirs
Yeah. How do we change the system so that people’s lives are served by the economy as opposed to extracted from?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Gary’s working on two sides. We do believe we need a safety net. So I’m not like, I’m not being Pollyannish to say that everybody should own a 401k account and all their pains are gone. I think we need high quality access to healthcare that’s affordable. We need child care that’s affordable. We need housing that’s affordable. And we work deeply within public systems to make sure that they not just have resources to do that, but they also have real high quality service delivery models to deliver things for people. At the same time, I think when you address the safety net so that people are not struggling to meet their day to day needs and then you give people prosperity pathways that gives them hope to say that, oh, I don’t have to worry about day to day all the time because I have this safety net. And it starts with my access to services that I can depend on.
And then it also means that I have like a $50,000 investment account that I can know will come through for me if I need a moment. And these are completely possible with our economic structure. I think we can start with small places. The other thing Gary deeply believes in, that all change starts locally. And so for us to not be embroiled in the chaos of the world or the nation, but to focus on change that happens in our community is a way to make that real. Because every community has a Gary. And so this is not an unrealistic hope for us to have.
Steph Speirs
Yeah. I think the unit of change is truly one voice in one room. You’re right.
Santhosh Ramdoss
Which, again, we learn from nature. Because if you think about it, nature doesn’t start off by saying, I want to change the world. It starts off with where it is right now, and then it creates change across the world.
Steph Speirs
And nature redistributes value through contribution. And that transformation cycle you talked about philanthropy, like a dam, where sometimes the spigot turns on. In nature, the unhealthiest water is stagnant water. And that’s just not how money flows. And, you know, the lemon tree doesn’t hold onto its lemons, and yet people will hold on to their wealth in a way that feels very unnatural. Hoarding is not a facet of nature. So how do you take lessons like that and apply it to your work?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, I think we’ve realized that the dam analogy is a good example, that we don’t see nature building dams. They’re clearly a human construct. And the other one that’s really important for us is this idea of metamorphosis. Often, whatever change we want to realize in the world, we don’t even know what it looks like. We kind of have a conception that’s the path we want to walk down, but we’re not going to force it down in a way where it is a specific strategic plan with boxes to it. And this is how we want to do it. And the biggest lesson we have is learning from social movements. So I’m a fan of thinking about social change as a small group of really idealistic people who can come together, but ordinary people can make dramatic change happen and then disband away. They’re not creating a foundation. There’s no office. And to me, that is also inspired by how nature works.
And for us, the foundation job is to give up control sometimes.So we are in the community, and we’re passing legislation. We’re doing things that are durable social change, but we’re often doing that with others and in communities. So when we go into these rooms, we know that we don’t have a lot of control over the outcome other than the fact that we trust the process and we trust the people in the room. And that’s a tough learning to have, especially as a CEO, when I’m sitting here going to my board saying, this is what we want to accomplish by the end of the year. And then I’m walking into a different group of organizers and advocates, and they’re like, well, here are seven different ideas, and this may or may not happen. It’s a tough balance. But I think that’s where durable change comes from, because then the change is embedded in the system as against being propagated by one institution.
Steph Speirs
And you’re the CEO of a foundation. Some consider that a dream job. And a lot of why I hear people who have high net worth, their resistance to letting go of their wealth comes from a place of, like you said, having power. That comes from the assets. People put you in more rooms if you have more assets under management. And so there’s an understandable fear that goes away. How do you. Someone who loves their job and has a great job, how do you personally tell yourself, I’m gonna obviate myself and my job through this work? Why did you get to that place?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, you know, I’ve thought about this a lot. I’m very lucky, partly because I grew up with very little wealth. In fact, I think most of my childhood, you would be very surprised if my mom could barely make it to the end of the month paying the bills. I didn’t get on a plane until I was 25. So if you told me that, hey, when you’re in your 40s, you’re gonna be running this foundation, I would have been like, it was not even in my, you know, imagination set. And so for me, like, the idea of. I grew up in a small Gandhian commune and there was a lot of transcendence there in connection to nature and also like this idea of co-creation and community. And so the idea of letting go comes easily to me.
And the power of growing up with very little resources is that eventually, if you do enough work, you can start holding on to things lightly. And so I get exhilarated when I think of this opportunity to be leading this institution because I don’t think that I want to be in a place where the impermanence of the job is what keeps me there. And I think I would say this for the Gary team in general and our board. We’re in a place where we take some really significant risks on behalf of the community. We’re able to do things that other folks can’t do because we’re like, yeah, we’re here for the next 10 years, might as well go try that.
So I feel like that sets me up so well. So I spend a lot more time thinking about the joy of this moment that I have, rather than the fear of not having this power and it also makes you question labels. Like, I wake up some days and I’m like, okay, what would happen if I’m not the CEO of Gary? And I’m like, well, that’s something we should embrace, because maybe there’s enough beauty in all of us that we shouldn’t be obsessed about the titles that we carry. And so I think everything should be impermanent. Like, any job you go in, if you think it’s permanent, I think it’s a fallacy.
Steph Speirs
Yeah. I’m a big fan of term limits. And also, when you let something go, something else comes in its place, which.
Santhosh Ramdoss
It is a fascinating point, because, you know, other radical institutions of society, like running for office or even, like a corporate CEO does not have permanence to it. A job with an institution that can’t literally can go away sounds like a very cushy place. And that might also be a challenge for us to confront as a society, as a community.
Steph Speirs
You talked about how your story is improbable, where you ended up. Can you take us just one more minute of what that journey looked like for you? And how did you end up sitting here?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, it’s a lot of chance. And I think it was. You know, I’ll just take a small digression. I was in business school. It was 2000, and it was between 2004 and five, I want to say roughly. And it was still a small town. It was about 60 miles from where I grew up. And I saw a flyer for a business plan competition at the University of Washington. And you’re talking about the southern part of India, which is about 8,000 miles from the University of Washington. And so it was about a social entrepreneurship business plan competition. And this was the heyday, the start of the movement.
And so I sent in a business plan about building rural businesses in the community that I was in. And then I got an email back from them saying, we love your business plan. We would like you to fly down to Seattle to present it. Never had a passport, never been on an airplane. So if I had to pick one pivotal point of my journey, it’s probably that flyer. I don’t know who at University of Washington decided to send that flyer to this random ass business school in the middle of nowhere And it really changed my life when I flew down to Seattle. It opened my eyes to something that I’d never realized. The possibility, the wonder, the joy, everything. And so that moment was really the transformative moment and so, yeah. And ever since then, I’ve been on this journey of trying to think about my skills in business and economics and as an instrument of social change. And then a series of things happen, and here I am.
Steph Speirs
Love that. And sounds like the trajectory of your life allowed you to also see risk differently, which plays out in your work you talked about. Because Gary is sunsetting your assets in the next 10 years, you can take bigger risks. Can you give an example of where you’ve been able to do that?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah. And I’ll just say, like, the first point you made is also why immigrants are phenomenal for this country. Right. Like, we come in as people who’ve taken significant risks already to get here. It’s not an easy place. And then by the time you’ve gotten here, you’ve got the best entrepreneurs in the world. So we’re precious.
Steph Speirs
I learned about entrepreneurship from my immigrant mom. So yes, agree.
Santhosh Ramdos
So Gary is often one of the things we try to do. We have this in-house social innovation lab, and we’re often building products that are at the edge of what’s possible. And the instrument of that is that most often than not, these are ideas that fail. And then about one out of ten usually starts to really work. So for instance, we launched a benefits gleaner that enables households to. To find out what they’re eligible for from a safety net standpoint and easily apply for them. We tried multiple versions of it, and there’s one that really worked with communities. And we started moving millions of dollars for families that knew that they actually didn’t know they were eligible for these safety net dollars. And how do you apply for them? And then that kind of took off and now it’s already in six different states and spun out into a separate nonprofit. So that’s an idea that we had enough risk capital to go out and try. And other sectors don’t have the resources to go and fail over and over again on behalf of the community. And we do. And so that’s a good example of where we’re able to stretch ourselves to take more risks on behalf of people we care about.
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah. And it takes resources to take those risks. And often when we’re talking about low income communities, people’s perception of risks are totally misaligned with the real risk. And so often the problems that we’re trying to solve in the economy to make it more just is trying to make sure that people realize that the perception of risk is greater than the real risk.
Yeah. And the biggest privilege of the resources that we have as an endowment or as an asset holder is to really use that in service of taking those risks. Which is the biggest gift we have.
Steph Speirs
And after you all started your sunsetting journey, the world’s largest foundation, the Gates foundation, announced recently that they were going to do the same over the next 20 years. And so I’m curious if you have tips for them about how to go about sunsetting in a way that stems from your learnings.
Santhosh Ramdoss
My biggest hot tip for them is that wealth is a surprisingly important tool in their playbook. And it turns out that all the problems that they want to solve are equally important, whether it’s eradicating infectious diseases and solving global health and full on, I think they’re on that path and their courage is really important. But somehow their story in communities should also be centered around what the purpose of what is the journey of their own wealth is and how they can pass on some of that, because I can guarantee, and there’s some modeling already, that they’re not going to be able to get the dollars that they need to by the end of the 20-year horizon just because the way markets work. And then they’re going to be staring down this reality of, oh, wait, what do we do now?
And there’s an easier answer where there’s a moment where overnight they can create trust funds for every kid who’s born under Medicaid or Medicare with a bunch of really great stocks and bonds. And I cannot underscore more the intergenerational impact that would have. It would be remembered forever as one of the most transformative things that can happen to households. And so that moment is what I’m excited for. And I think that it’s too early for us to convince them to get there, but I think we will get there. And the movement is there where the wealth story is not fully leveraged, as far as I think their own thinking is my guess.
Steph Speirs
How has your opinion about wealth creation changed from your childhood to adulthood?
Santhosh Ramdoss
Yeah, I mean, I feel like it was a little secret that somebody should have told me, because I always was told the story that you work hard and then you attain financial mobility. It’s just somewhat true, but it’s not mostly true. I bought my first home about four years ago when I was 39 or 40, 41. And I realized what it feels like to actually sit on an asset when you sleep, and it’s actually growing in value. And then you open your brokerage account, you invest in stocks and bonds, and you realize wealth is actually a secret that people want to hold onto. And it mostly happens when you’re not doing anything. And that, to me, was a revelation.
Part of the reason I’m such a big evangelist is because my heart goes out to every mom who wakes up and knows that she’s going to be broke if she has a flat tire. And instead of thinking about staying with her kid, she has to worry about these challenges. And for me, the answer is actually relatively easy. We should give households the tools, the knowledge, and the capacity to have some of these assets. And for me personally, even me as a parent, I don’t have to wake up thinking about my own daughter, worrying about her outcomes in any shape or form, because I know I have a safety net, not just because of my job, but because of the assets that I hold. So that, to me, has been a revelation. Even though I went to a business school and got advanced degrees, you just don’t understand it enough until you get to that moment and you’re like, wait, this is what it is. It’s a little secret wealth that is kept away from most people. And that’s part of the reason why I believe in it so deeply.
Steph Speirs
We need to democratize that feeling and that access. And my mom was one of those moms, by the way, who, when she turned the keys in her car, didn’t know if the car was going to start and she was going to be able to go to work. And it caused so much stress. And so the fact that Gary, as an institution, is talking about letting go of assets as opposed to holding it on is part of the way that we build a better future. So thank you so much for your leadership in the space and for joining me in this conversation.
Santhosh Ramdoss
Thank you. I really appreciate you. Thanks.
Steph Speirs
Thanks. Great, appreciate you too.